Chef Enrique Olvera on Cultural Appropriation, Trump's Possible Reelection, and Tex-mex

In this special episode, I speak to Mexico's most famous chef, Enrique Olvera, owner of two of the world's top 25 restaurants—Pujol in Mexico City (ranked 12th) and Cosme in New York City (ranked 23rd). Chef Olvera opened up about a number of controversial issues, including the alleged cultural appropriation of Mexican cuisine by white chefs in the United States, the prohibitive cost of his restaurants for many Mexicans, and the possible reelection of Donald Trump. And he had a surprising take on Tex-mex! To check out a video of the interview, head to our Lost in Mexico YouTube channel.

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Transcript

Chef Olvera  0:00
Mexicans are fantastic at cultural appropriation, no. Talk about a taco al pastor. That’s a Lebanese kebab. … So I think in cooking, cooking cannot exist without a certain degree of cultural appropriation.

Nita Rao  0:15
I’m Nita Rao, and this is Lost in Mexico, a podcast about my journey to understand Mexican life through conversations with Mexicans. In this special episode, I interview Mexico’s most famous chef Enrique Olvera, owner of two of the world’s top restaurants—Pujol in Mexico City (ranked 12th) and Cosme in New York City (ranked 23rd). Chef Olvera’s journey to fame has been told many times, including in a glossy episode of Netflix’s Chef’s Table. So I decided to ask him about some more controversial topics, including the alleged cultural appropriation of Mexican cuisine by white chefs in the United States, the exorbitant cost of fine dining for many Mexicans, and what the reelection of Donald Trump would do for U.S.-Mexico relations. The chef was an open book, and his views on a number of things, including Texmex food, were not what I expected. To check out a video of the interview, head to our Lost in Mexico Youtube channel, and follow us on Instagram @lostinmexico.podcast.

We’ll be back in a couple of weeks with a regular episode of Lost in Mexico, where we’ll look at the other side of the dining equation—cooks, often women and often indigenous, who have been written out of the history of Mexican cuisine. For now though, here’s my interview with Chef Olvera.

Chef Olvera, thank you so much for joining us on Lost in Mexico. The purpose of this podcast is to move beyond the narco-centric narratives about Mexico that have historically predominated the foreign press and tell interesting stories about Mexico based on conversations with Mexicans. And, you know, for us, it’s a real privilege to have you here as you are a visionary of Mexican cuisine. And, interestingly enough, the owner of the top ranked Mexican restaurant in the world and the top ranked U.S. restaurant in the world. So thank you so much for joining us.

Chef Olvera  2:13
Thank you. Welcome to Pujol.

Nita Rao  2:15
I want to start with your personal story, because one thing that intrigues me is that it feels as if your personal story has actually mirrored the transformation of Mexican cuisine, so to speak. And you obviously wanted to become a chef many years ago, but then decided to go and pursue culinary school in the U.S. as opposed to in Mexico. Tell me about why you decided to make that decision.

Chef Olvera  2:40
Well, back then, cuisine in Mexico was not as popular. So most people that came into kitchens, it wasn’t optional. It was more something that happened in their lives. There was not a lot of culinary schools in Mexico, there were a couple of like, quick certificates. And my father was very keen on me having a bachelor’s degree. So we started looking elsewhere. We looked in Europe and several schools in the U.S. We saw a couple in Mexico. And then the first time I went to the school in New York, it was like for a kid going to Disneyland, no, like seeing so many people, so many chefs there, it immediately felt like home. So that’s that’s the reason I went to school in the U.S.

Nita Rao  3:28
Was it the case that at the time in Mexico, the level of sophistication when it came to the formalised training of cooks just wasn’t there?

Chef Olvera  3:38
I think in Mexico, Mexican food has belonged at homes, and in markets. But restaurants didn’t do Mexican food in a higher level most, most fine dining restaurants in Mexico when I was young, were French or Japanese, or even Italian, but the concept of a fine dining Mexican establishment is something that didn’t exist before. And it still is challenged by by some people here in Mexico, whether Mexican food can be prepared at that level is obviously something that we’re trying to do. Most of the culinary training, therefore, happened at home. So the techniques one learns from generation to generation, not necessarily as a craft, but more as a family treasure, or a family recipe. So I think that is the big change and one of the reasons that there’s no, there wasn’t as many culinary schools. Obviously that has changed drastically, there are more and more culinary schools in almost every corner of the country. Cooking has become a profession, and a career choice for people in my generation, and for a lot of young men and women in Mexico.

Nita Rao  4:58
So in 2000, you start Pujol, and you are using Mexican ingredients, but you are not cooking Mexican dishes. Tell me about that. Why did you decide to do that?

Chef Olvera  5:11
It wasn’t like a decision, it was simply my training in New York, was with European techniques. When I was in, in the United States, I saw a movement of the new American cooking with Alice Waters, with Larry Forgione, with people that were reimagining what American food was. And when I came here in Mexico, it made sense that that movement can happen in Mexico because we have such rich culture here. So little by little, we started working with ingredients but because my training was in European cuisine, we started with European techniques and some Mexican products. And then little by little we started incorporating not only those products but recipes and and ideas but we never wanted to to create something that was mixed but actually something that felt more intuitive.

Nita Rao  6:15
Were you ever worried subconsciously at the time that if you started doing Mexican cuisine at a fine dining restaurant that there just wasn’t a market for that?

Chef Olvera  6:24
Hmm, I actually never thought of the market, we were cooking out of passion. We never did like market research on on whether, you know, the food was going to sell. Obviously the first few years were were very hard. There’s not a lot of people that walked into Pujol’s tables, the, I think also the problem was that the concept was not it was not well rounded. The food, like I said, was a little European with some Mexican ingredients. The name was Spanish, the locale was minimalistic. So it didn’t make sense, no, it took us a while. I graduated in ... 1999 and we opened Pujol in 2000. So, um, I didn’t have a lot of training in my background, we were basically learning as we as we cooked, and, and the first three or four years were were really, really rough. And then we started finding a voice we, because there was not a lot of people coming into the restaurant, we started thinking, like, what are we doing wrong? And we saw a lot of the street food carts being busy. So we said, that’s what people want to eat. No, if people want to eat quesadillas, yes, and they want to eat esquites, and they want to eat tacos, that is something that we should incorporate into our language. And that started happening in 2004. So our first incursion into Mexican cooking was not with the celebratory dishes, or the, you know the big dishes of Mexico, but more street food inspirations that started appearing in, in, in our menu and also things that I remember from childhood and childhood memories from my mom cooking at home.

Nita Rao  8:22
So you start Pujol in 2000 at the age of like, 24, then you start Cosme in 2014 in New York. Both of these restaurants are now seen as the pinnacle of Mexican fine dining. You’ve spoken a little bit about how you wanted to change the Western perception that Mexican food is cheap and easy. Do you think you’ve done that?

Chef Olvera  8:46
I think we have done that through generations. This is not something that, we’re not isolated in history. It does coincide, no, with the latest years, people recognising that Mexican food can also be sophisticated, can also be performed in a higher level but it’s something that Ricardo [Muñoz] was building, you know, myself have built on that heritage, and now the younger generations are also part of that conversation. So we see our Mexican food as a continuum. We didn’t break with tradition. And there were a lot of chefs, Monica Patiño, for instance, is one of the people that I admire in in my younger years as a chef, no, and they, they paved the road for us. There's a really nice restaurant called Empellon in New York, the chef is Alex Stupac. And he was one of the first that started doing Mexican cuisine at a higher level. So if he didn’t come in before we did with Cosme, probably the history would be different. So it would be incorrect to say that we built this movement. No, it’s actually a collective effort.

Nita Rao  10:05
I want to ask you about Mexican labor in the U.S. because there are so many Mexican workers who are working in the restaurant industry who have traditionally been poorly treated, underpaid, and subject to a lot of discrimination. Do you think that a lot of your restaurants in the US have helped to change the way that Mexican labor is valued?

Chef Olvera  10:26
I think there’s a sense of pride that comes to working in a restaurant like Cosme or like Pujol you know, there’s of course ... the craft, but there’s also a cheerfulness of understanding that people are, are giving a different value to, to a tortilla so I, I think what we’re trying to do is not only change the perception of the customer, but also change the perception of the producers, and the people that work in the restaurant, so that they feel pride in in their job, they feel pride in their culture, and they understand that, that that culture also belongs in in a fine dining restaurant.

Nita Rao  11:16
And is one of your priorities in terms of changing the perception of producers is to make sure that producers are properly remunerated for their work, which you don’t necessarily get when it comes to cheap food?

Chef Olvera  11:28
Yes, absolutely. And it’s something that we practice in every restaurant, no in Pujol, in Cosme, in Atla, we like to work with small producers, we like to engage with their practices. It’s not only about the quality of the product, its the people that grow the food for us, obviously, when you have a good tomato, the probability that somebody was taking good care of the soil and of the plant is high. But it is also very important, no, because we’re not, if something taught this current crisis has taught us is that we’re part of our community and the food system. It’s, you’re not isolated. So you need to make sure that you have those strong connections with with the farmers.

Nita Rao  12:23
Chef Olvera, I want to ask you how you feel about particular criticism towards your restaurants. Because, you know, we have many Mexican friends who say, you know, Chef Olvera has done a wonderful job in terms of being an ambassador of Mexican cuisine to foreigners, and teaching foreigners about Mexican cuisine, and teaching foreigners to value Mexican cuisine. But, you know, most Mexicans can’t afford to eat at Pujol. And, you know, should Pujol be so expensive when there is excellent food at street vendors and in markets. Do you think sometimes it’s easier to convince foreigners of the value of your food rather than Mexicans?

Chef Olvera 13:00
I mean, it’s a conversation about quality, no. And, of course, we want everybody to to earn better wages in Mexico. I think the idea would be not to produce cheap food, but actually increase the wages of everyone. So that is something that we practice, at the restaurants, the salaries that we paid in Pujol are much higher than the average in the industry. So I think the conversation shouldn’t be if Mexican food should be cheap, but if Mexican should earn more for their work.

Nita Rao  13:38
I want to ask you specifically about your relationship with mole, because I know it has been a very defining dish for you. What does mole mean to you?

Chef Olvera 13:46
Mole is a celebratory dish. Every family and every town have their their recipe of a mole. Since Pujol is a celebratory restaurant, a lot of people come here for their birthdays, for anniversaries, or for a special occasion, we thought that it was proper for us to have our own version of a mole, our own recipe. The recipe that we like, more is the black mole from Oaxaca. That’s the mole that we enjoy the most. And our recipe of the mole madre is based on a black mole recipe. We did we change certain things because our mole belongs in a tasting menu. And we never create dishes on isolation. But actually, if you’re thinking about music, we’re not doing a song we’re doing an album. So the the mole belongs into, into a tasting menu. And that’s why we don’t serve with with with chicken. And then the preparation of the mole because we do it year round. We use different fruits and different spices through the year. So that recipe is changing depending on on what fruits we can get in season so that those are the two main main reasons and that we have a mole at the menu. And then the idea Ricardo taught taught me about seven day old mole, more than 15 years ago, and I never thought of it much. But when we were trying to make our mole recipe for for an anniversary of Quintonil we, instead of doing it seven days, we said we’re gonna do double see what happens. So we reheated the mole for 14 days for the anniversary of Quintonil and then we started just doing it permanently. So we just instead of reheating process, because in Mexico, people say that mole on the next day of the wedding tastes better. Kind of what happens in other countries with multiple recipes, no, I can think of for example, like Turkey on Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving turkey on the next day on a sandwich, no, the things that you reheat are normally more flavorful.

Nita Rao  16:21
So you’ve spoken about mole in the context of cultural appropriation. And specifically, what I want to ask you about is, you know, there are a lot of people who think that there are all these non-Mexican chefs coming to Mexico, taking the recipes of locals, and then going back to the US or anywhere else in the world and profiting off that. You were in The Atlantic a few years ago, saying that you thought that the idea of cultural appropriation in food was was absurd. And you used mole as an example. Talk me through that.

Chef Olvera  16:51
Well, Mexicans are fantastic at cultural appropriation. No. Talk about a taco al pastor. That’s a Lebanese kebab. We took cilantro from Asia, and you make it you make it yours. So I think, of course, there’s concerns about cultural appropriation everywhere in the world. But I think in cooking, if you’re respectful, and you give credit to the to the people that ... I don't believe that I created mole, you know, and I don't believe that the tortilla belongs to anyone, no, the recipe of a margarita is also public domain. Nobody can say that the Margarita belongs to them, even if you create it, no. Because when you’re creating, you’re not creating from zero, you’re obviously incorporating ideas from from your life of things that you have tasted. So with mole it’s a little bit the same, no. Of course, there are moles that are native, that are pre-Columbian, but the moles, for example, the conventional moles like the mole poblano is a mix of cultures. So I think in cooking, cooking cannot exist without a certain degree of cultural appropriation.

Nita Rao  18:18
So given that you think that most dishes are an amalgamation or an infusion of so many different cultures, is there an authentic Mexican dish?

Chef Olvera  18:29
Depends on I would say there’s regional dishes in time periods. And you can say that not only about Mexican food, you can say that, I don't know if you think about pasta with tomatoes, is that cultural appropriation from noodles from China and tomatoes from Mexico? No, it’s it starts to become I think, difficult that that conversation say, who owns what, and I personally think it's better to think that food belongs to everyone.

Nita Rao  19:04
So I want to ask you about sort of farming practices and sustainability, which you touched on before, because I know that you, for example, like to buy some of your produce from producers in Xochimilco who use more sort of Aztecan and sustainable farming practices. What would you say to the Monsantos of the world who say that it is cheaper and more efficient to produce food that feeds a lot of people using things like genetically modified crops?

Chef Olvera 19:30
I think the issue with industrialised food production is that first of all, it’s a system that is geared towards concentration of wealth. And the idea of food production should be that the wealth of food production belongs to the community. To me the simple idea of a company profiting from a seed for all the farmers makes no sense I think seeds are deposits of culture and if they have been nourished by the community through generations, and I think that makes a lot more sense in terms of food production, and obviously, monoculture destroys the soil, the soil is the patrimony of the community, and we have to take care of it as a collective. I don’t see in corn a commodity, I see in corn, an expression of diversity, an expression of climate, and as a wealth of our culture.

Nita Rao  20:41
So you don't think that even if there is an ability to feed more people, that that should be I suppose, prioritised in favour of you know, over and above preservation of diversity.

Chef Olvera  20:51
I mean, if the system was successful you couldn’t argue with success right, but we can all see the results.

Nita Rao  20:59
I have to ask you about the controversy surrounding an article that you wrote in Reforma, expressing some frustration with you know, entitled people who come into Pujol and expect to expect to be served lemon and chilli with their with their dishes, and the Twittersphere was very quick to respond and suggest that you were actually being entitled. Tell me what your reflection is on all of that.

Chef Olvera  21:26
Well, the idea was not to say that people that come to Pujol are entitled. I was giving examples on for example, no, the idea of adding lemon to a nigiri in a fine Japanese restaurant, I think you’re, you’re not respecting the work of the sushi chef and I was talking more about them than were talking about Pujol in the context of the pandemic, which I think it’s also important to, to say that no, the idea was not complaining about customers adding chilli to our dishes, we add chilli ourselves and lemon to most of the dishes in Pujol have lemon, and chilli. But it’s more about respect to others and how you should wear a mask, no, and be courteous and don’t parallel, don’t double park, which is something that happens in Mexico too. There's, sometimes I wish there would be more respect for the work of others. So I was I was talking about that, not complaining about customers.

Nita Rao  22:39
I want to ask you about about the way that you value your own work. Chef Muñoz described you as an artist. Do you consider yourself an artist?

Chef Olvera  22:49
No, I think I I’m in love with things that are well made. And I do have a passion for that. It gives me a lot of joy when I when I go into a space that is beautiful when I cook food that is clean, and elegant and delicate. There’s a sensibility for that. But I don’t know if I’m an artist. If I had to say yes or no, I would probably say no.

Nita Rao  23:18
So you wouldn’t consider your your creations as works of art?

Chef Olvera  23:25
No, it’s a dedication. It’s a it’s a life passion, it’s a way of understanding our life. But I see it more as a series of connections than a work you know in a workshop isolated.

Nita Rao  23:41
You are one of the most prominent Mexicans in the world because of the work that you’ve done. I know that you’ve previously expressed some concern about children at the border. This year is an election year.

Chef Olvera  23:55
Yeah.

Nita Rao  23:57
Are you worried about the re-election of Trump and what that might do to Mexico-U.S. relations?

Chef Olvera 24:00
Of course, I’m concerned about the re-election of Trump. I think the discourse of polarisation that has happened in the US is not positive for anyone, not only for Mexicans. Even though I I am in love with my country, I’m not a nationalist, I don’t believe in strong national sentiments. Like I said, even if I love the food of Mexico, it’s not it’s not something that we intend I, I believe in, in humanity in the links between countries, in in in regions. And I think the election of Trump or the re-election of Trump attempts on that, no, and the separation of families and the polarisation of, of society.

Nita Rao  24:53
It’s interesting to say to hear you say that you’re not, you don’t consider yourself a nationalist. Do you think that that belief is inherent in your food in some ways because you don't believe in sort of cultural appropriation in Mexican cuisine because Mexican cuisine is a fusion of so many other different types of cuisines?

Chef Olvera  25:10
Yeah, it’s it’s about being human, no, and not where you’re from. There’s a lot of Mexicans that are not born in Mexico, no. We’re saying that Chavela Vargas, who said like, ... Mexicans can choose wherever they want to be born. So I think in that sense, we we need to understand that we’re all in this boat together. There’s no nationalities, there’s no winning between nations. There’s no, I don’t I don’t see a benefit to that. I see more of a dialogue and harmony between humans than national power.

Nita Rao  25:58
So you’re opening up a new restaurant in LA. Very exciting.

Chef Olvera  26:04
Thank you.

Nita Rao  26:05
When you opened up Cosme you said that it was a very unique experience for you because you were entering into a market that was not really familiar with Mexican cuisine. Now you’re going into LA where there is there are some Mexicans living in LA. There's obviously such a strong historical and cultural link between Mexico and LA. Tell me about what the challenges are involved in entering into that type of market.

Chef Olvera 26:30
We understand that California has its own Mexican cuisine, I almost see it, no, as a different regional cuisine of Mexico, just as there’s the cuisine from Oaxaca or Yucatan, or or Mexico City, I think California has its own version of Mexican cuisine. And we’re taking that into consideration. I think the sentiment is kind of the same, but the context is very different. I was there yesterday, no, and we were doing menu trials and it it felt to be completely honest, a lot like Cosme. It felt like that start of something that is new that you’re, you know what you want, but you don’t know where you’re going. Because also, I think the reality of California will kind of will set the road for us, we’re not, of course, you have an idea on your mind on where you want the restaurant to go. But then the restaurant kind of takes the life by itself. It’s when we open Cosme, we never thought that Cosme was going to be the kind of restaurant that it became. It was supposed to be a like, casual, more, more festive restaurant, no, and it became a lot more celebrated than expected. So we you never know when you open a restaurant, what’s going to happen. What I do feel that with California, we, I feel a little bit more at home, maybe because there is such a strong presence of Mexicans there and I think there is I feel like a immediate connection to, to the culture of California and, and we want to be part of that. We’re not there to, to carry the flag of authenticity, we love California products is I think one of the best places on earth to cook. The quality and the flavours of the ingredients there is amazing. And we just want to cook those ingredients.

Nita Rao  28:57
I’m intrigued by what you say in terms of California being almost another state of Mexico in terms of its cuisine. Do you consider Tex Mex to be similar?

Chef Olvera  29:07
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Nita Rao  29:09
Do you like Tex Mex?

Chef Olvera  29:11
I like it when it’s well prepared. You know what the problem with Tex Mex is sometimes it’s like we also really and this is something that we need to work on but you normally relate it to fast food. So you you relate it to poor quality tortilla shells or poor quality grounded beef, but those are stereotypes, no, and that has happened to Mexico. So I’m not gonna fall into that trap. And I think if you prepare good quality Tex Mex, of course, its delicious.

Nita Rao 29:42
So I should see you at Chipotle lining up for a burrito.

Chef Olvera  29:47
I’ve eaten in Chipotle before, yes.

Nita Rao  29:50
So it's 20 years since you opened Pujol. It's a pretty incredible, landmark achievement. This year has obviously presented some challenges because of COVID. Tell me about how you’ve tried to navigate through those challenges.

Chef Olvera  30:04
Um, I guess, in in March, what we were thinking was, this was gonna take a few months to get over but now that we understand that it will take a little bit longer what we’re trying to do is understand what's going to happen to us and how we would like the restaurant to be more than the pandemic itself. Of course, we’re concerned with the sanitary crisis and the economic crisis. But those things are completely out of our control. We cannot control how the pandemic is evolving and the economic crisis of the of our industries in specific. What we can control is the experience of Pujol, certain changes that we did, for example, here on the restaurant was opening our terrace for a la carte people with no reservations. No. So there’s little things that we’re changing. We’re still convinced that people enjoy really good food, and I think that is something that will, will survive the pandemic so we know that it might take us a few months more or even a year more, but it will finish at some point. So, right now we we just need to be skinny and flexible, to make sure that we can survive the pandemic. And then after that we’ll come back, hopefully as strong as ever.

Nita Rao  31:36
Are you concerned about the restaurant industry?

Chef Olvera  31:38
Of course, there’s so many closings no, there’s so many people suffering and not only employees, but also producers. And farmers that depend on those restaurants because they have no distribution channel through supermarkets. So of course, I'm concerned, I think, the situation for restaurants is, has been really challenging, and continue to be challenging for the for, for a good period of time. Some people are saying maybe March, April, other people are saying December of 2021. So it will be really hard you have to be on top of your game right now. I think it right now you have to also make sure that you’re performing well, in every level, not only in the gastronomic or in the hospitality, but also in the financial. Everything needs to be very precise. So there’s very little room for for mistakes right now.

Nita Rao  32:48
So 20 years ago, you opened Pujol. Now you sit here 20 years later, with two of the best restaurants in the world. Where’s Enrique Olvera in 20 years time?

Chef Olvera  32:59
Hopefully in a farm. Hopefully in a farm or somewhere in the countryside. I really enjoy nature. I love, I love simple life. So hopefully, hopefully not in 20 years, maybe 15

Nita Rao  33:17
Just retired to somewhere luxurious, retired to Oaxaca.

Chef Olvera  33:21
Yes, Oaxaca, or the mountains, or the ocean. I also really love restaurant industry. So I’ll probably stay involved in some capacity in restaurants. But I started really young. And I also I truly believe, you know, it's also time to to let other generations take care of the industry. And hopefully other people will continue the legacy of Ricardo, the legacy of our work.

Nita Rao  33:56
How would you describe the ride?

Chef Olvera  33:59
The ride has been fantastic. It’s crazy. I mean, if you think about it, when we opened Pujol, we we had 40 seats in a very small location. Of course, we wanted to have a beautiful restaurant, but we never expected to grow in in into into this restaurant collection. And we’re very proud. And I think the most beautiful part is that the people that work for for the restaurants also have become part of a family. And they have interiorized those values. And to me that is the best part of the ride is that there’s now people that a lot of people, there’s hundreds of employees in the company that have that same vision of Mexican food.

Nita Rao  34:52
Thank you so much for joining us today. That was such a pleasure.

Chef Olvera  34:56
Likewise, thank you.

Nita Rao  35:00
Thank you for joining us on Lost in Mexico. Please subscribe to the podcast to never miss an episode. And please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts! We’ll see you next time.