Vicente Fox was President of Mexico from 2000-2006. In this wide-ranging interview, he opens up about his campaign to legalize marijuana and curb the power of drug cartels, his concerns about Mexico's democratic future under President López Obrador, and the migrant surge at Mexico's northern and southern borders. And I pressed him on some of the contradictions in his record, which made for some revealing, if slightly testy, exchanges. To check out a video of the interview, head to our Lost in Mexico YouTube channel!
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC7shxS083jK8MwU0S7UqyPw
Instagram: @lostinmexico.podcast and @nita.rao0112
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Website: www.lostinmexico.com
Vicente Fox was President of Mexico from 2000-2006. In this wide-ranging interview, he opens up about his campaign to legalize marijuana and curb the power of drug cartels, his concerns about Mexico's democratic future under President López Obrador, and the migrant surge at Mexico's northern and southern borders. And I pressed him on some of the contradictions in his record, which made for some revealing, if slightly testy, exchanges. To check out a video of the interview, head to our Lost in Mexico YouTube channel!
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC7shxS083jK8MwU0S7UqyPw
Instagram: @lostinmexico.podcast and @nita.rao0112
Facebook: @lostinmexico
Website: www.lostinmexico.com
And what does that translate to in English, President Fox?
Vicente Fox:Donald, you are a pendejo, an asshole.
Nita Rao:I'm Nita Rao, and this is Lost in Mexico, a podcast that explores the human side of Mexican life. As you know, we've been working on a three part series about the cultural appropriation of Mexican food, and we're almost ready to release part two. But in the meantime, we have something pretty special for you today. An interview with former Mexican President and Trump antagonist Vicente Fox. President Fox is a fascinating character. He ushered in a new democratic era for Mexico after 70 years of one party rule. He's a staunch advocate of drug legalisation. And unlike many former presidents, he loves taking shots at his opponents. In this interview, I ask President Fox about some of the biggest issues
facing Mexico right now:a brutal drug war, tensions with the new Biden administration and the future of Mexican democracy. And I pressed him on some of the contradictions in his record, which made for some revealing, if slightly testy exchanges. To check out a video of the interview, head to our Lost in Mexico YouTube channel, and follow us on Instagram at lostinmexico.podcast. For now, here's my interview with President Vicente Fox. Can I please start by asking you to show your t-shirt one more time?[President Fox displays t-shirt:"Donald eres un pendejo."] And what does that translate to in English, President Fox?
Vicente Fox:Donald, you are a pendejo, an asshole.
Nita Rao:So, President Fox, I want to start with drug legalization. Mexico is on the precipice of legalizing marijuana, and you have become a real global activist for drug legalization in recent years. How do you feel about the legislation that is on the cusp of being passed by Congress?
Vicente Fox:Well, on one side, I think it's a good law, we can do with it. Because it ... includes many of experiences from other countries, companies like Khiron, which I'm on the board, a Colombian-Canadian company, is ready to go, because it's been investing in this market, opening an office, having a CEO for Mexico. And through that, meeting the different distribution channels within Mexico, getting ready to acquire a net of clinics, which is the way the Khiron model operates through clinics attending directly to consumers and to patients.
Nita Rao:I understand that you are on the board of Khiron. I'm interested in what you say in terms of a big and attractive market being created for marijuana in Mexico as a result of this legislation. How can we make sure, however, that small local producers and farmers will be able to compete against the Khirons of this world, who are able to buy up large licences and navigate regulations much more with much more sophistication?
Vicente Fox:That is a good question. And it's something that the same market will solve. What happens is in the case of medical use of marijuana, you need high technology, you need research, you need to invest in innovation, the way it has been done in countries that are have already legalized. So only larger companies have that capacity, but on the other side, we have all this small and medium people that will try to get into the industry. And the solution for that is very clear the industry has integrated itself like the automobile industry has done. So you have on the top, a [indiscernible] plan, a brand like GM or Ford or any of them, which do the marketing, they do the development in technology and research and they do coordinate the growth. Now this companies in the automobile industry and same is happening on the on the cannabis industry is going to be integrated the same like a pyramid. So you're gonna have somebody leading the path to the market, but they will have suppliers, first line suppliers, which will have a possibility of doing business and each of those suppliers will have its own suppliers and their own people to produce for them. So at the very end, you will have a company like Khiron, and you will have campesinos doing a small facilities of production or larger farmers in Mexico, which we have plenty of them very professional and very capable. These farmers will install a greenhouses which are very expensive. To invest in one hectare of greenhouse, you need a minimum a half a million dollars, and many times much more. So the integration of the industry, in this form, will will take care of the big international corporations, the local investors that want to invest in those corporations, like Khiron is right now, open for investment. So any anybody that has a little bit of money available, they can invest in Khiron, and they will participate on the industry and the returns of the industry. That's the way it's going to be composed and I think that's very important, because the day United States opens the market federally, this is for the whole of the nation, not states like it is now. Then it will be a NAFTA industry, which will be linked between Canada, United States, and Mexico. And that will make it international, that will have the need for this pyramid to work efficiently and supply the markets in either of the three countries.
Nita Rao:But President Fox you mentioned other countries that have chosen to legalize marijuana. Let's have a look at Canada, for instance. Obviously, the legislation was designed and enacted to help indigenous and black farmers engage in this market legally. Unfortunately, what we have seen in Canada, however, is that a lot of multinational corporations, which are predominantly owned by white people really do have ownership over the market. How can we stop that from happening in Mexico?
Vicente Fox:Well, we we have to work on avoiding many obstacles that the industry faces. One is what you saying, the small guy seems to be aborted out of the industry. So we need reliable ethical companies, professionals that understand that there is a piece of the pie for everybody. But that decision has to be taken by the participants in the marketplace. And number two, by the authority, they do have some incentives for the small guys. But let me tell you, a small guy cannot produce a car, the car has to be produced by GM, they are huge corporation international and global, they can do it. Not Juan Perez here in Mexico can build the car. Same thing happens with marijuana. The really producing marijuana on the open fields, open in in agriculture is not working anymore, it's become a very, very sophisticated process to produce the plant first, the flower, then and the products that are derived from that. So we have to put that pyramid where we can invite and include the small guy, and the government has put in some incentives for that to happen. But at the very end, end, let's be frank. I mean, like any other industry, you have the big guys that come in, that develop the technology, develop the market. And you have the small guys that are smart, that are capable of coming in and in a niche producing very special products, like companies that exist in Oaxaca, I mean with the hongo and with many other uses of natural plants and resources. They can occupy a niche, very specialized, and they can do some business. That's the only way it will. Go ahead.
Nita Rao:President Fox, this initiative to legalize marijuana occurs against the backdrop of a brutal drug war that has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives since 2006. I want to ask you, does it frustrate you that for some outside of Mexico, they view this as Mexico's problem, even though it is U.S. demand for drugs and U.S.-made weapons that are fueling this ... conflict.
Vicente Fox:I have always denounced that since I was president and all along. And that's a big problem in Mexico, cartels are very strong. They the U.S. market provides them with huge, with mammoth amounts of money. So they become very powerful. So they can get Chapo out of jail just by bribing all the people that is running that jail, and so many other things. They can integrate to their teams hundreds of thousands of kids with a salary with a pay that is higher than what GM pays in the production line. So it's difficult to compete with them. But the story tells us a history in the background, which I can witness, these cartels, these people that is moving on the underground that is on this criminal market on this violent piece of of actions in any country, they tend to join the industry because they are not stupid. They see that the industry now will generate money for them, income and returns. So they move out of the underground, they move out of the criminal activities and they work for profits like an entrepreneur. I have also witnessed, I remember when I used to go to Seattle or Calgary in Canada, or those markets in Washington State to meet with the illegal, illegal participants in the industry. I find them again today but instead of having a tail in their hair, earrings in their ears. What they do now is they dress with a jacket a tie and they go to conventions. Today there are international conventions and events that gathers crowds, big crowds, 1500, 2000, even up to 10,000. I given conferences in audience of 10,000 people. So the the good guys, or the good base inside of the industry is absorbing, or it has absorbed throughout the time, the bad guys which have to move to other kind of criminal activities. But you see this in Colombia happening, you see this in all the West Coast of United States, you see it in Israel. Everybody now is a businessman in this industry. Everybody is in academy, in research, it's a new industry. It's great that we were able to take away this plant from criminals and put it in hands of businessmen, of farmers, and government. So it's a totally different picture today.
Nita Rao:I want to unpack what you said, President Fox, because you've mentioned taking the plant from criminals and and trying to reduce the violence, significantly reduce the violence associated with the cartel involvement in marijuana. Cartels nowadays are generating such significant profits from other drugs such as fentanyl, methamphetamines, cocaine. Do you think that this measure will have a significant impact on de-escalating the violence caused by cartels?
Vicente Fox:It will, no doubt, because at least I estimate that one-third of their income comes from cannabis and marijuana. That's the part they're going to lose, they will keep the other income coming from other different crimes. So here we have a two-fold strategy, one we have to develop, develop the industry of cannabis with strong ethical matters, with values, with morality. So make out of this industry a good, solid, legal, reliable industry. On the other side, governments have to keep fighting cartels. And this is what Mexico is losing that battle. And because President Lopez has decided that he will do nothing, so he's just leaving the field open for cartels to moving whatever kind of crime, they are participating. So the obligation of government is absolute, and it's still active. So they just have to make a rule of law, they have to make sure that criminals are caught every day, 24 hours a day, and the whole of the seven days of the week.
Nita Rao:But if the cartels move away from marijuana, and start dealing more heavily in for example, fentanyl, right, which is easy to produce, cheap to produce, has higher profit margins, and has an insatiable demand in the U.S. Won't that mean that there won't be a de-escalation in the violence and the influence of those cartels?
Vicente Fox:Well, there is a principle here that I am an advocate, and I promote intensively, prohibitions don't work. And this has been a prohibitions for over 100 years to consume marijuana and cannabis, because some dogmatic religious community decided to call it forbidden. And to make it illegal. That was 100 years ago. Up until now, things have changed. So prohibition is proven doesn't work, we human beings don't react very passively to impose prohibitions upon my behaviour. So we like to be to be free, we like to take our own decisions. So I mean, if somebody wants to consume marijuana, let it be, if somebody wants to consume amapola or morfina, let it be, if someone want to consume those chemical drugs, let it be, it's their choice. What authorities and we the industry have to[indiscernible] bring in very strong information processes, like we're doing in Khiron, associated with Tecnologico de Monterrey, we have a diploma, a seminar, and to teach the doctors and nurses community to teach public in general that how you can consume this drug without doing harm to your health and so on with the rest. So I am an advocate now pushing amapola amapola this this other beautiful plant and flower which is grown in Guerrero. I think he call it an English poppy or something like that. And, and you get morphine out of it. And that's good. I mean, that's the good and right use of that flower. It's not to kill people, it's not to strengthen cartel. It is to provide human beings with new ways of attending your health. Morphine is in every hospital anywhere in the world, it's a huge market. And that so why not in Guerrero, start raising and producing more amapola, but let's do some research, investigation, invest money, and get the right product and sell it in this huge market.
Nita Rao:President Fox, you're such a passionate advocate for drug legalization now. But during your presidency from 2000 to 2006, you were not pro drug legalization, and instead, you did launch Operativo Mexico Segura, which was a militarised response to cartel violence, which was a precursor in some ways to President Felipe Calderon's all out war. Why didn't you press for legalisation at the time of your presidency?
Vicente Fox:Well, two two answers to that, and thank you for the question. Number one, because, because a president doesn't break the law. You have to go by the law and by the Constitution. And in my term, it was absolutely forbidden and penalised, so you have to do your work as President. Number two presidents being smart, they don't go against cultures, they don't go against public general public beliefs, and at that time, the general belief is that this drug was very harmful, that it was not good for your health. And that was the prevailing thinking around marijuana and cannabis. In my time, in my time, year 2006, we reached the best ever in the whole history of Mexico, crime rate, the lowest crime rate in Mexico's history was attained in year 2006, which was at the end of my term. So we didn't have a reason to bring the army to fight the cartels, we didn't have a reason to make out of that war, a holy, massive war like President Calderon did after, after my term. And so I just didn't have a reason to now. But immediately, when all this starts to detonate and grow, I decided to participate in it, I did a lot of research myself, I went to every single market, I learned from the markets from the prohibited markets, from the illegal markets, that this could be changed, that this paradigm could be changed. And then I decided to dedicate part of my life to be that activist and I'm now a speaker to most any big meeting around marijuana and cannabis or drugs. And that is because I'm part of the industry now because I have many friends, because now it's a legal industry most everywhere in the world, because now you can walk on the streets without being afraid that somebody is going to kill you, or that government will take you and take you to jail like they still do in United States. I mean, that nation has three million people in jail because it consumed drugs. It's absolutely stupid. And I hope the President Biden will take the path and the road to solve this problem and go for legalisation at national level. I know there's many Congress, people in U.S. Congress ready to go for it. I know public opinion now has seen markets like Colorado and like Oklahoma, like California, like Washington State, like many others in the States, but nothing bad happens when you open the industry, and you legalise it, you just make a make a industry capable of attracting investment, investment with a capacity to generate jobs, hundreds of thousands of jobs and an industry that generates taxes for government. So I don't think nobody should be against that, because nobody has died by excess consuming marijuana. I don't have not heard anybody that dies from that, except somebody that could start eating it and eating it and eating it, full your stomach and then explodes, like whatever, like a taco.
Nita Rao:I want to touch on, I want to touch on President Biden. You are obviously a very staunch critic of President Trump. Now the US has a new President in President Biden who I'm assuming you know quite well, because when you were president, he was chair of the Foreign Relations Committee. Do you, what what should Mexico expect from a President Biden?
Vicente Fox:Well, first of all, to me, I don't have nothing personal against leaders or persons. It's not personal my strong position against Lopez Obrador. It's not personal my strong position in the case of Trump, or the case of Biden, what is it cause my participation and commitment, his policies that come out of these people and. And policies that came out of Trump's office, many of them were wrong, and they are being proven now. As same is being proven right now here in Mexico, most of the policies that come from Lopez Obrador or his offices is wrong, is affecting Mexico's capacity to grow sustainable, is affecting Mexico's institutions, very key democratic institutions are being attacked by by populism and demagoguery. So that's what I'm against. Now, you can always have an excellent relationship between United States and Mexico. We're neighbours, we're friends, and we're partners with NAFTA. So it it's like kicking the the the the food that we get, or the development that we can get from United States, useless. I think that we can build up a very constructive relationship between both nation. It is there. And we just have to follow it. Now we have the two main problems there, which I hope that Biden solves, because Lopez Obrador is not solving. One of them is crime, what we talking about violence, I think that United States and Mexico must work coordinatedly to make sure that we stop cartels from killing people. And number two, the case of migration, we have to understand that migration is natural, U.S. full 300 million people, and 99% of them are migrants. They came from Africa, they came from Europe, they come from Latin America, now they're coming from Asia. So every citizen in United States except the natives, the original natives is a migrant. Migration is an asset to any country, it works in favour of development nations. But when it is an excess, you have to moderate, you have to control your borders, I understand that. But you have to do it using your talent, using your wisdom. And this can can be done. A solution must come from both leaders, the Canadian, the United States and the Mexican leader.
Nita Rao:So President Fox, I'm interested in what you said about migration being such a great and powerful asset. Right now, there is the greatest number of migrants who are being apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border. Should the U.S. accept these migrants?
Vicente Fox:Well, that happened because of the wrong position and policies of President Trump. Now we have to dismantle, that critical situation, that crisis that we're in involved right now, and start going back to more intelligent, more wise ways of proceeding with with migration policy. And this is what we should do. Mexico must accept that United States has the right to control its border and has the right to control that valve, that valve of how many migrants can be absorbed and integrated into the U.S. market and U.S. capacities. In my time and later, it was estimated that United States can absorb over half a million people coming from abroad to join in the effort of that great nation. So there is room for an orderly, well managed ... solution for migration. Now what you cannot do through that, then you have to go to the source and that's the best approach to migration. Let's go to the source where they come from and why they are moving out and bring the solution right there. Syria, if they don't stop that war, migrant will keep on flowing, families will keep moving out of their country. If there is some wise brain that can bring in a peaceful effort for Syria, migration will stop. If we can get for Centro Americans a source of income in their own country, a job or some way of making legal real income, the solution will come. Mexico's not anymore, the number one exposing migrant population, like it used to be. Migrants are not coming from Mexico now as they used to. They're coming from Centro America. And the only migration from Mexico in United States is intelligent, orderly migration, people come because there is a job, they come because they have family there, or they have family here. So Mexico in a way has already solved the problem of migration. Now we have to face the problem coming from the south, coming from Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and all the rest. And that's why we have to come up with a Marshall Plan, a Marshall Plan type, like it was done in Europe, to recuperate growth, to promote economies and jobs. We have to do it there in Centro America. And that's where President Biden should be wise enough, on instead of building walls and spending money and more money in controlling the border between Mexico and United States. They spend billions of U.S. dollars there, use those billions to bring in and provoke development in Centro America. That that will be the right solution. And the portion is that it can be done.
Nita Rao:So President Fox, do you agree with President Lopez Obrador's decision to crack down on Central American migrants coming in through the Mexico-Guatemala border and deploy the National Guard to that region?
Vicente Fox:No, absolutely I'm not in favour of that, he's doing wrong. And, and he should reconsider. Now, what he has also proposed, but it's weak his proposal, and he's not pursuing that proposal is let's develop Centro America, on a joint Marshall-type plan, United States and Mexico, let's bring in there. I did that, you will remember that we had that program, that we called Puebla Panama, which considered the city of Puebla as a starting point in Mexico. And we'll go down all the way to Panama, and come up with a very strong solid regional development program. And if you go today in that route from Puebla to Panama, you will find a, a truncal power line, a grid line that goes from Puebla all the way to Panama. In that power line, countries or regions that have excess power, you just put it up on that grid, and those who need power, you take it down from that grid. If you take Centro America, Costa Rica is self-sufficient, but the rest are not. So Costa Rica will be bringing up to the grid, the power they produce, and Ecuador, Guatemala, and the rest will consume it. Mexico is abundant, abundant in producing power in southern Mexico, that's where we have the big, big dams, in Chiapas, in Tabasco, in those places. We produce a lot of energy there, that energy has to be conducted down south to meet the needs of countries down there. So that's just one example. The other one is, let's bring in industrial parks, let's make regions competitive through bringing in universities, knowledge, research, peace and stability. An industry will come and invest, and they will move the product out of the Panama Canal, either to the west, or to the east. So you just need a mind open to bring solutions and they can be done.
Nita Rao:President Fox, when you were president, you did have these very lofty goals for migration reform, which included giving amnesty to undocumented workers in the United States, a comprehensive guest worker program, that would enable more Mexicans to work in the United States. And obviously, you know, open borders in an EU-style arrangement. Now, obviously, that didn't come to fruition because President Bush couldn't get the votes and but it's now 20 years later, and President Biden is proposing a path to citizenship for undocumented workers. Do you think that there's cause to be hopeful for that migration reform this time round?
Vicente Fox:It would be wise. Wisdom comes when you are 70 or older. So Biden has wisdom, he can really think positively about solving this. I think he has started taking small steps towards this goal that you're mentioning. Of course, he has the opposition of Republicans. He has difficult competitive situations in Congress, which is not easy to convince everybody, but he will do the job if he has time. So I really think that can happen, like it happened with President Bush and myself. We did reach a point where everything was ready to go. This was September the seventh of that bad, awful year of the attack to the towers there in New York. I was in Washington four days in advance of that sad incident. And I was with Congress, with the different commissioners in Congress, I addressed both joint chambers of Congress, President Bush had already decided, and unfortunately, September the 11th came came about, but that was very compelling law. It included number one, let's legalize, let's document, those 11 million Hispanics or Mexicans that went in United States illegally at that time. So let's legalise the situation, let's document each one of them so that they can stay in the United States and they can keep working. President Biden is in favour of this he's gonna be working on it. Number twoo, once you do that, number two is out of those half a million migrants that come every year, allocate amounts to each country, Mexico can have 80,000 of those half a million, Centro America can have 60,000, South America so many more, India and the rest, so allocate that half a million that is needed by United States to bring in the talent and the labour effort that is needed there. And number three, let's, let's make it constitutional. Let's make it legal. So that it is stays there forever. All of that we had agreed, United States and Mexico, under the administration of President Bush and President Fox, unfortunately, September 11th came about. So I came back home very sad. And the President Bush gave me a phone call and said, Vicente I'm sorry to tell you, but this has changed priorities in United States. We're not going to be working on migration now, we move to working on attacking terrorism. And he did a big crusade and he stopped ... terrorism around the world in a way. So I understand things happen and you have to adapt to new circumstances.
Nita Rao:So I want to talk to you about collaboration and trust between the U.S. and Mexico, which was obviously something that you did stake your presidency on. Many Mexicans were pretty infuriated when General Cienfuegos was arrested in the United States without for alleged collaboration with the cartels without notifying Mexican prosecutors. And then likewise, U.S. officials were pretty angered when ... General Cienfuegos was was sent back to Mexico and then exonerated here. What do you think that this incident says about the level of trust and collaboration between Mexico and the U.S.? Do you think that they both share the same objectives when it comes to combating crime and corruption?
Vicente Fox:That's a very sad event. We never know how many things went underground, in negotiations between United States and President Lopez administration. But everything they did was wrong. Because they closed out any possibility of doing justice in any direction that justice can always bring. And they just made a agreement. And los curritos we say in Mexico. So in that, that room where the two were discussing, they made some arrangements that are they can not make public, they have not made public because they were not transparent because there why they were not legal. So it's a very sad incident. I'm really surprised that United States and this was wrongdoing, accepted to negotiate justice and to negotiate the law. The case of Mexico, it happens, quite frequently, especially President Lopez administration, Lopez Obrador, he he's always administrating justice according to his way of thinking and to what he thinks is right. Not according to the law or the Constitution. Very bad event, wrong event. [indiscernible] United States and Mexico for that event.
Nita Rao:And when you talk about transparency of the Lopez Obrador administration, one thing that you did stake your presidency on was the idea that you were restoring democracy in Mexico by breaking one party PRI rule, by declassifying government documents, by ensuring greater protections for the press. Obviously, President Lopez Obrador has attacked the press. Do you feel concerned about Mexico's democratic future?
Vicente Fox:I, yes. I'm very, very concerned. Lopez Obrador never, or in very few occasions speaks the truth. He's always lying, he's always exaggerating, he's always not sustaining what he says, and what he commits. So we're not doing well. And we hope that we can correct, it would be desirable that he corrects, because he has his chosen ones, which is half percent, half of the population, 45%, that are in conditional to him, he governs for them, he gives them whatever they want, whatever they need. And the other 55%, we are the forgotten ones, including their businesses, small businesses, including their education. So it's a very discriminatory government. And but this is populism. This is demagoguery in Latin America. Unfortunately, population and demagoguery reached Mexico with Lopez Obrador, unfortunately for United States, Trump, which also a demagogue, which is also a populist, on the far right side, was an event awful for United States.
Nita Rao:But obviously President Lopez Obrador does remain very popular in Mexico, while your party PAN suffered a major rebuke in 2018, and stands to lose much further ground in the congressional elections. What do you think PAN needs to do to become a meaningful opposition in Mexico?
Vicente Fox:Well, each of the parties has to regain credibility, has to get closer to citizens, they have a long way to go, and very difficult task. So on the meantime, try to bring back balance of power, trying to bring back the independence of Congress. We have this next election in June the sixth. And it's a great opportunity for Mexico, maybe our only one last opportunity to stay in path, to stay under the right direction, like all successful countries of the world are doing. This is our last chance, I would say and it's June the sixth. So what was decided and I welcome this is that the main opposition parties PRI, PAN, PRD, join in a strategic agreement to operate together in many of the electoral districts throughout the nation. So when you cannot do it on yourself, you you associate with others, and this is what happened. I think this will this will work. But it has much more that has to be done to make sure that we regain a congress when nobody no party individually has majority. So that each of them are forced to think, to use their intelligence and their wisdom, sort of everybody now can have a voice which they don't have. And at the very end is to put the briddles on a wild horse, which is Lopez Obrador, and stop him from destroying the nation. So this is the opportunity June the sixth, and I hope we get and it's very democratic. I hope we get a congress where there is no majority for none of the parties. This will oblige Lopez Obrador to think before he speaks, will oblige him to reason because he comes with occurrences. It will oblige him to negotiate with Congress and other political parties. And they will force him to govern for 130 million Mexicans, not to only to the 30 million that voted for him. So that's what we expect. That's what we and I personally expect that it will happen on June the sixth.
Nita Rao:Okay. I want to talk to you about your life after presidency. Obviously, a lot of Mexican presidents tend to shy away from the limelight. And you certainly haven't done that with some of your more public battles with President Trump and obviously President Lopez Obrador. Why have you decided to return to the public arena in such a forceful way?
Vicente Fox:There's only one answer, Mexico, there is no colors in Mexico, we should all work for Mexico, to have a great Mexico that we can have, to have a successful Mexico that we can have, to have a Mexico, which is a gift to our descendants, to our kids, to our families, that we have a Mexico where equal opportunities will be there for everybody. A Mexico where this huge mammoth gap between those who have and those who don't can be narrowed. So it's an aspiration that every country has every citizens have. But leaders many times don't understand, especially those populists and demagogues, which their only cause is power, power, power, power, like Maduro today, like Castro in his time, like Chavez in his time, and like now is pretending Lopez Obrador to do.
Nita Rao:And, obviously, your, one of your main roles is also serving on the boards of marijuana companies like Khiron Life Sciences. You've spoken previously about the substantial donations that your foundation has received from Khiron. What do you say to critics who suggest that, you know, maybe your activism is a form of economic opportunism, rather than a change in your political views?
Vicente Fox:Well, that's not my drive, I have very clear, my my purpose, I have very clear my objective, I have to nourish three foundations, they need a lot of money. I don't have the money, which many people would think that I have by being a former president of Mexico. So what we do is work intensely to raise money for the foundations. And one way of doing that, and this happened with Khiron. At their own free will, they decided to pay me back with donations to the foundation, I think it's great, nothing to hide and nothing strange with that. Instead of giving me an honorarium, or, or that, they decided to donate through the foundation stop, to the ... to the to the endowment of foundation shares, Khiron shares and I'm happy with that. It's public. Everything we do in Khiron is public, not only because we believe in integrity, that we believe in accountability and responsibility, but also because we're a public company in the Toronto Stock Exchange. So you better behave and you better do your things well done. And that's what we do.
Nita Rao:And President Fox, my final question to you is, it often takes generations to evaluate the success of a leader, how do you think history will view your presidency?
Vicente Fox:Well, I didn't work for that. I work for the poor of Mexico. I work for others trying to build a better Mexico, that was my drive, my move, and my belief. So that's why I work hard. 24 seven, in those six years, and I'm satisfied with what I did, and many things came fine and well, others did not. And so, and I am by the way, I'm not those guys or leaders that care about legacy, and that care about what's going to happen in the future how President Fox going to be evaluated. I think you have to be evaluted by every action, every public policy. Every decision you took during those years, and as I said, they were good, bad decisions, and on the balance I'm satisfied. We have never had the lowest crime rate. We had the best ever for Mexico level of poverty. We've reduced it, there's no other government that has reduced poverty in Mexico has been on the constant growth, except in my term. We build more homes than anybody else has built in Mexico, a million homes a year. And so I'm in I'm infrastructure, ports, airports, highways. Now nothing of that is being done today. The only thing is being done today is what is easiest for Lopez Obrador. He just sits in that chair, asks Secretary of the Hacienda how much money we have today. Okay, you have this president, he gives it away, he's not investing in the country, he's not investing in agriculture, he's not investing in infrastructure. He's not investing in education or health. He's just giving away. That will not work. That's pure populism. And that's what I fight against. And I will fight to the rest of my life.
Nita Rao:I have one final question. I have to ask President Fox.
Vicente Fox:So one more.
Nita Rao:One more, I swear. But what is your, you've spoken about some of your great successes in terms of economic development, building roads and highways. What is your, what are your big regrets from your presidency?
Vicente Fox:Many things, as I said, were pretty good, othe s were not. But today, I thin in Latin America, we have to g t away from ideology. We're alwa s discussing ideology, the left ocialism, communism, the r ght. And, and ideology is not t e drive for developm nt. We need to be more pragmati. We have to discuss and deci e upon, how do you create j bs? How do you create wealth? How do you make your economy grow? How do you have the bes schools that will yield the bes talents, strategic talent nd so on. And so pragmat sm today, to me, should be the riving force to all leaders in the world. Ideologies is they don't work anymore. Look at the hurch, Catholic Church, they us d to have 90% of Mexican Catholic, today, if we have 2% that are active, will be a l t. So ideologies, dogmas don't work. And with this, I finis
:Enlighten works. That's w at really works. That's what mad United States the great na ion that it is today. Enlighte ment that has three pillars, one reason, always go after r ason, always think about what is reason and reasonable. Always ake sure that your decisio s are full of good reasons why you take them. Number two, scie ce, prove every policy, pro e every decision, make it wor, like in science, you will le rn in science, that you get a s one, you drop it, and it falls down to the floor. In that game, the law of gravity after doing it millions of times, an learning that a rock, if you throw it, it falls down. o that's science, science roves and certifies everythi g to make sure it is right. nd number three humanism, human sm is the gravy ingredient. I's being for others, it's worki g for others, it's taki g moving away from selfi hness from lack of generosity, f om evil, from lack of transparen y, and, and be humane, and attend those 8 billion human beings that we have, and we sha e a home with all of them. Let's be compassive. Let's have lo e. Le
Nita Rao:Thank you so much President Fox for your time, we' e super appreciati
Vicente Fox:Muchas gracias, sue te.
Nita Rao:Thank you for joining Lost in Mexico. Please subscribe to the podcast to never miss an episode, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. We'll see you next time.